great works ii – 2850 jta 12:25-2:05: love letters from the world

Differences between first, second and third person:

Yes, readers often feel as if they are “directly involved in the story” (Muneeb, Maria, Tara) and it’s interesting that he notes it was more difficult to translate the 2^nd person into the third person; you switch from an observer (3^rd person) to an actor (Daphne); Interestingly, Jamie doesn’t see a difference between these choices, and certainly all readers have different reactions; Katerina agrees that it doesn’t seem to make a difference (but she also agrees that it makes the reader more “involved” in the story, so could that possibly be the difference?); Jacqueline makes an interesting comment about switching from third person to second person, when she says: “you almost forget who the author is talking about: him or me?” This comment gives a good deal of insight into the choice of point of view and the involvement of the reader, I think; Francesca said it was easier to imagine what was happening in the second person; Bintou points out that when we switch to the first or third person, we also seem to want to switch to the past tense (the original is in the present tense) and the present is, of course, much more immediate, giving more a sense of urgency; Susana points out that the first person “grabs” our attention much more than the third (Preston agrees); Joseph reminds us that the first person could also put us in the shoes of the protagonist, and I wonder if the second person, however, is more intrusive? Keauna seems to agree when she says that in the second person, the reader “gets the sense that (s)he is being told what to do” (and Jinwoo agrees); Bintou says that the second person feels “more real” and the third person seems to be just informing us of something; Daphne makes a very interesting comment when she suggests that each “person” gives a “different perspective to the story.” Rebecca makes the comment that the second person is like being “hypnotized,” and yes, there is a trancelike quality to this; Songyun makes the interesting observation that the second person is like “taking the reader on a journey through Felipe’s stream of consciousness,” and Tara and Michelle feel it is simply more emotional; Jorge G. feels that first person is a “happy medium” between second and third (interesting!);

Last paragraph on page 842

First Person:

I force myself to go on working on the papers.  When I’m bored with them I undress slowly and get into bed, and fall asleep at once, and for the first time in years I dream, dream of only one thing, of a fleshless hand that comes toward me with a bell, screaming that I should go away; and when that face with its empty eye socket comes close to me, I wake up with a muffled cry, sweating, and feel those gentle hands caressing my face, those lips murmuring in a low voice, consoling me and asking me for affection.  I reach out my hands to find that the other body, that naked body with a key dangling from its neck, and when I recognized the key I recognized the woman lying over me, kissing me, kissing my whole body.  I can’t see her in the black of the starless night, but I can smell the fragrance of the patio plants in her hair, can feel her smooth, eager body in my arms; I kiss her again and didn’t ask her to speak.

Third Person:

He forced himself to go on working on the papers.  When he got bored with them he undressed slowly, got into bed and fell asleep at once, and for the first time in years he dreamed, dreamed of only one thing, of a fleshless hand that came toward him with a bell, screaming that he should go away, everyone should go away; and when that face with its empty eye sockets come close to him, he woke up with a muffled cry, sweating and he felt those gentle hands caressing his face, those lips murmuring in a low voice, consoling him and asking him for affection.  He reached out his hands to find that the other body, that naked body with a key dangling from its neck, and when he recognized the key, he recognized the woman who was lying over him, kissing him, kissing his whole body.  He couldn’t see her in the black of the starless night, but he could smell the fragrance of the patio plants in her hair, can feel her smooth, eager body in his arms; He kissed her again and didn’t ask her to speak.

I personally didn’t have any problems translating the text from second person to first or third person.  By doing this exercise I was intrigued on reading the passage in different point of views.

• Katarina Stojanovic

I thought Katarina translated this passage very interestingly. Although there is a slight distinction between the first and third person point of view, I understood and comprehended the passage much more effectively in third person. In first person it sounds as if it is a narrative, a frightening one. In third person however, it is much less sinister but also much more distant. I was able to to put myself in the shoes of the main character in first person while I didn’t really feel attached to the story in third person. In addition, it makes it slightly more strenuous to be able to put yourself in the characters shoes and feel the emotions they’re going through in my opinion. However I didn’t necessarily have any difficulty between the two perspectives. It actually  gave me a better understanding of the story. I believe in certain cases it’s necessary to view the story from other perspectives as it gives the reader the ability to put themselves in the story.  I didn’t find it particularly difficult or have any problems going from second person to first or third person.

• Farhan Zaman

Rebecca

“ My sleep was heavy and unsatisfying. In my dream, I had already felt the same vague melancholy, the weight on my diaphragm, the sadness that won’t stop oppressing my imagination. Although I was sleeping in Aura’s room, I was sleeping all alone, from from the body I believe I’ve possessed.

When I woke up, I looked for another presence in the room, and realize it’s not Aura who disturbs me, but trahter the double presence of something that was engendering during the night. I put my hands on my forehead, trying to calm my disordered senses: that dull melancholy is hinting to me in a low voice, the voice of memory and premonition, that I’m seeking my other half that the sterile conception last night engendered my own double.

And I stop thinking, because there are things even stronger than the imagination: the habits that force me to get up…”

I thought that this passage would be a good passage to try in first person. In the second person, it felt almost as if I was being hypnotized. It’s creepy and not only is trance like, but almost seems as if you are in a trance. “Your sleep is heavy and unsatisfying” is a command, trying to tell you that you are experiencing something you physically are not.

.

Songyun:

“ He sleeps was heavy and unsatisfying. In his dream, he had already felt the same vague melancholy, the weight on his diaphragm, the sadness that won’t stop oppressing his imagination. Although he was sleeping in Aura’s room, he was sleeping all alone, from from the body he believe he has possessed.

When he woke up, he looked for another presence in the room, and realize it’s not Aura who disturbs him, but trahter the double presence of something that was engendering during the night. He puts his hands on his forehead, trying to calm his disordered senses: that dull melancholy is hinting to him in a low voice, the voice of memory and premonition, that he is seeking his other half that the sterile conception last night engendered his own double.

And he stops thinking, because there are things even stronger than the imagination: the habits that force him to get up…”

Between first person, second person and third person. We can see when you first start reading the novel the second person narration sounds like someone is giving you instructions. The second person experiences as you actually feel its happening to you. And also helps us understand the development of main characters. But the third person does not bring the reader to a present state of mystery, but the second person taking the reader on a journey through Felipes stream of consciousness.

Michelle:

I thought that how my groupmates translated this passage was very interesting. I am most comfortable reading it in third person, because that is what we usually read books in, but the first person sounds like a person saying a narrative. I think it was a good passage for Rebecca to choose because there is a major difference between the three versions. The one in the book sounds like someone is telling you to do something, the first person sounds like someone saying their own creepy experience, and you are more distanced from it, and the third person makes you even more distanced and much less creepy.

“Although I was sleeping in Aura’s room, I was sleeping all alone, from from the body I believe I’ve possessed.” I thought that this sentence was strongest in first person. It becomes an emotional one, instead of an analytical one, when it’s in first person.

Maria:

Passage 2 offers an interesting use of second person as it describes what Felipe is seeing in the house as well as his emotions for Auro. The second person allows the reader to relate more to Felipe and almost feel the emotions that he is feeling.  On page 836, the narrator says, “You’re thinking about this as you follow her out of the room, and you discover that you’ve got to follow her with your ears instead of your eyes: you follow the rustle of her skirt, the rustle of taffeta, and you’re anxious now to look into her eyes again”. If first person were to be used, the quote would be “I’m thinking about this as I follow her out of the room, and I discover that I have to follow her with my ears instead of my eyes: I follow the rustle of her skirt, the rustle of taffeta, and I’m anxious now to look into her eyes again”. The translation to first person rather than second person still allows the story to feel personalized and does not allow for much difficulty while translating. It sounds more like a narrative of Felipe rather than personalized to the reader. The use of second person serves as a guide  to the reader and seems like there is a commanding voice that is enabled Felipe to think and act; it is somewhat supernatural. On the other hand, the use of first person makes it seem like Felipe is in charge of his actions and he is describing his thoughts and actions.

Tara:

As Maria stated the use of second person gives us the feeling that we are in the scenario and experiencing what Felipe is experiencing. I think when translating the passage into first person , you also still have the ability to envision what is happening. It gives you the impression that you are hearing Felipe’s thoughts and feelings. However, translating the quote into third person would be“ He’s thinking about this as he follows her out of the room, and he discovers that he has to follow her with his ears instead of his eyes: he follows the rustle of her skirt, the rustle of taffeta, and he’s anxious now to look into her eyes again”.  This translation takes away the feeling of being in the scenario and makes the quote seem much less personal. The original quote states “you’re anxious now to look into her eyes again” I think Fuentes used second person for his work because he wanted the reader to feel that sense of anxiety that Felipe was feeling. By translating the quote into third person this would take away the personal feel Fuentes’s work gives the reader.

First Person— The old woman laughs sharply and tells me that she is grateful for my kindness and that the girl will show me to my room. I’m thinking about the salary of four thousand pesos, and how the work should be pleasant because I like these jobs of careful research that don’t include physical effort or going from one place to another or meeting people I don’t want to meet. I’m thinking about this as I follow her out of the room, and I discover that I’ve got to follow her with my ears instead of my eyes: I follow the rustle of her skirt, the rustle of taffeta, and I’m anxious now to look into her eyes again. I climb the stairs behind that sound in the darkness and I’m still unused to the obscurity. I remember it must be about six in the afternoon, and the flood of light surprises me when Aura opens the door to my bedroom— another door without a latch— and steps aside to tell me: “This is your room. We’ll expect you for supper in an hour”.

Third Person— The old woman laughs sharply and tells him that she is grateful for his kindness and that the girl will show him to his room. He thinks about the salary of four thousand pesos, and how the work should be pleasant because he likes these jobs of careful research that don’t include physical effort or going from one place to another or meeting people that he doesn’t want to meet. He’s thinking about this as he follows the girl out of the room, and he discovers that he’s got to follow her with his ears instead of his eyes: he follows the rustle of her skirt, the rustle of taffeta, and he’s anxious now to look into her eyes again. He climbs the stairs behind that sound in the darkness and he’s still unused to the obscurity. He remembers it must be about six in the afternoon, and the flood of light surprises him when Aura opens the door to his bedroom— another door without a latch— and steps aside to tell him: “This is your room. We’ll expect you for supper in an hour”.

It was definitely more difficult to translate the text into third person point of view than first due to having to change not only the “you’s” but also often the word after.

• Aly Yoon

The difference between the first, second, and third person can affect the way something seems.  In Aura, it is written in the second person.  This helps you put yourself into the story so that it is easy to paint that picture in your head of what is going on.  For example when the book says, “You remember it must be about six in the afternoon, and the flood of light surprises you when Aura opens the door”, the second person form of writing easily allows you to picture the light coming from the room.  But once Aly translated the writing to third person, it made the whole process a little more difficult.  Other phrases like, “he thinks about the salary of four thousand pesos, and how the work should be pleasant because he likes these jobs”, are harder to allow yourself to put inside the book and feel what they’re going through.

• Preston Cheung

Daphne Young:

Page 835-836

I move a few steps so that the light from the candles won’t blind me. The girl keeps her eyes closed, her hands at her side. She won’t look at me at first, then little by little she opens her eyes as if she were afraid of the light. Finally I can see that those eyes are sea green and that they surge, break to foam, grow calm again, then surge again like a wave. I look into them and tell myself it isn’t true, because they’re beautiful green eyes just like all the beautiful green eyes I’ve ever known. But I can’t deceive myself; those eyes do surge, do change, as if offering me a landscape that only I can see and desire.

He moves a few steps so that the light from the candles won’t blind him. The girls keeps her eyes closed, her hands at her sides. She won’t look at him at first, then little by little she opens her eyes as if she were afraid of the light. Finally he can see that those eyes are sea green and that they surge, break to foam, grow calm again, then surge again like a wave. He looks into them and tells himself that it isn’t true, because they’re beautiful green eyes just like all the beautiful eyes he’s ever known. But he can’t deceive himself; those eyes do surge, do change, as if offering him a landscape that only he can see and desire.

I didn’t find it particularly difficult or have any problems going from second person to first or third person. In fact, in doing so, I was able to understand how each gives off a different perspective to the story. In first person, it puts me in the shoes of the main character. In second person, it is like someone is telling me what I am doing and I have no control of what I am doing or have the freedom to choose how I am feeling. In third person, I don’t feel connected to the text like in first and second person.

Susanna Domosi:

There is a huge difference in effect of the perspective being first person point of view and third person point of view. When in first person, the reader’s attention is grabbed much more than in the third. It is natural human instinct to pay attention when someone is calling on you, which is why Fuentes is successful in having his readers absorb the story as if they were experiencing it first-hand. A particular part that stuck out to me in Daphne’s translation was:  “He looks into them and tells himself that it isn’t true, because they’re beautiful green eyes just like all the beautiful eyes he’s ever known” and “I look into them and tell myself it isn’t true, because they’re beautiful green eyes just like all the beautiful green eyes I’ve ever known.” Just reading this one sentence in the two separate points of view invoke extremely different emotions. When one reads “I look into them…” you are prompted by the words to imagine a time when you were mesmerized by the eyes of someone, but when you read “He looks into them…” the words do not transform into as vivid of an image in one’s mind.

Jiwoo Han:

        I completely agree with Susanna when she stated that there is a huge difference between the first person’s perspective and the second person’s perspective. I also believe that there is a big difference between the original and the translation from the viewpoint of the third person. Especially, I found the big difference between this two parts, “Finally you can see that those eyes are sea green and that they surge, break to foam, grow calm again, then surge again like a wave” and “Finally he can see that those eyes are sea green and that they surge break to foam, grow calm again, then surge again like a wave”. When I read the first one, I naturally visualized Aura as it stated. On the other hand, when I read the second one, I came up with Montero visualizing Aura. I think that this is the most different thing between the two.

Pg 844

First Person

Now I know why Aura is living in this house: to perpetuate the illusion of youth and beauty in that poor, crazed old lady. Aura, kept here like a mirror, like one more icon on that votive wall with its clustered offerings, preserved hearts, imagined saints and demons.

I put the manuscript aside and go downstairs, suspecting there’s only one place Aura could be in the morning—the place that greedy old woman has assigned to her.

Yes, I find her in the kitchen, at the moment she’s beheading a kid; the vapour that rises from the open throat, the smell of spilt blood, the animal’s glazed eyes, all give me  nausea. Aura is wearing a ragged, blood-stained dress and her hair is dishevelled; she looks at me without recognition and goes on with her butchering.

I leave the kitchen: this time I’ll really speak to the old lady, really throw her greed and tyranny in her face. When I push open the door she’s standing behind the veil of lights, performing a ritual with the empty air, one hand stretched out and clenched, as if holding something up, and the other clasped around an invisible object striking again and again at the same place.

Third Person

Now he knows why Aura is living in this house: to perpetuate the illusion of youth and beauty in that poor, crazed old lady. Aura, kept here like a mirror, like one more icon on that votive wall with its clustered offerings, preserved hearts, imagined saints and demons.

He put the manuscript aside and went downstairs, suspecting there’s only one place Aura could be in the morning—the place that greedy old woman has assigned to her.

Yes, he found her in the kitchen, at the moment she’s beheading a kid; the vapour that rises from the open throat, the smell of spilt blood, the animal’s glazed eyes, all give him  nausea. Aura is wearing a ragged, blood-stained dress and her hair is dishevelled; she looks at him without recognition and goes on with her butchering.

He left the kitchen: this time he’ll really speak to the old lady, really throw her greed and tyranny in her face. When he pushed open the door she’s standing behind the veil of lights, performing a ritual with the empty air, one hand stretched out and clenched, as if holding something up, and the other clasped around an invisible object striking again and again at the same place.

• There were not many problems with translating, however, some words had to be altered to make the text fit into either the first person or the third person                                                 -Joseph Morreale

When reading this excerpt from “Aura” in the second person (original), then reading the translation in the first person it can affect the reader in many ways. Through the second person, the reader gets the sense that (s)he is being told what to do. Versus in the first person view, the reader is able to experience more of a direct connection with other characters and the story. For example, looking at this short quote from the original text, “Yes, you find her in the kitchen, at the moment she’s beheading a kid; the vapour that rises from the open throat, the smell of spilt blood, the animal’s glazed eyes, all give you nausea”. So, in the reader’s mind (s)he may see his or herself walking into the kitchen and finding Aura there. Now looking at this same quote, but in the first person’s view “Yes, I find her in the kitchen, at the moment she’s beheading a kid; the vapour that rises from the open throat, the smell of spilt blood, the animal’s glazed eyes, all give me nausea.” The reader has a different feeling now, (s)he can directly picture the blood up close and the look that Aura wears. The tone is also different for the first person; it adds a more dramatic effect.     -Keauna

Reading the text from the third person’s point of view, I feel like it’s like any other text, I’m just being informed. Rather in the original translation, in second person, you feel the narrator’s feelings as if its yours and as if he is telling you the story directly or talking to you. . In second person I know what’s going on because it’s like the story is telling me my actions. Like where it says “You leave the kitchen: this time you’ll really speak to the old lady..” Unlike third person, “He left the kitchen: this time he’ll really speak to the old lady”  in this sentence I have to imagine someone else leaving a kitchen, building a illustration in my head.The narrator’s tone is harder to figure out in third person, I don’t know exactly what the characters are feeling but if it is second person, using the words you, I’ll have a better understanding at the situation and it makes it feel more real.                                                                       -Bintou

First Person:

“My head is spinning, overcome by the rhythms of that distant waltz, by the odor of damp, fragrant plants: I fall exhausted on the bed, touching my cheeks, my eyes, my nose, as if I was afraid that some invisible hand had ripped off the mask I’ve been wearing for twenty- seven years, the cardboard features that hid my true face, my real appearance, the appearance I once had but then forgot. I bury my face in the pillow, waiting to keep the wind of the past from tearing away my own features, because I don’t want to lose them. I lie there with my face in the pillow, waiting for what has to come, for what I can’t prevent. I don’t look at my watch again, that useless objet tediously measuring time in accordance with human vanity, those little hands marking out the long hours that were invented to disguise the real passage of time, which races with a mortal and insolent swiftness no clock could ever measure. A life, a century, fifty years; I can’t imagine those lying measurements any longer, I can’t hold the bodiless dust within my hands.”

Third Person: 

“His head is spinning, overcome by the rhythms of that distant waltz, by the odor of damp, fragrant plants: he falls exhausted on the bed, touching his cheeks, his eyes, his nose, as if he was afraid that some invisible hand had ripped off the mask he’s been wearing for twenty- seven years, the cardboard features that hid his true face, his real appearance, the appearance he once had but then forgot. He buries his face in the pillow, waiting to keep the wind of the past from tearing away his own features, because he don’t want to lose them. He lies there with his face in the pillow, waiting for what has to come, for what he can’t prevent. He doesn’t look at his watch again, that useless objet tediously measuring time in accordance with human vanity, those little hands marking out the long hours that were invented to disguise the real passage of time, which races with a mortal and insolent swiftness no clock could ever measure. A life, a century, fifty years; he can’t imagine those lying measurements any longer, he can’t hold the bodiless dust within his hands.”

It was hard going from each point of view, because you almost forget who the author is talking about: himself or me?

Aura- pg.851

First Person:

“My head is spinning, overcome by the rhythms of that distant waltz, by the odor of damp, fragrant plants: I fall exhausted on the bed, touching my cheeks, my eyes, my nose, as if I were afraid that some invisible hand had ripped off the mask I’ve been wearing for twenty-seven years, the cardboard features that hid my true face, my real appearance, the appearance I once had but then forgot. I bury my face in the pillow, trying to keep the wind of the past from tearing away my own features, because I don’t want to lose them. I lie there with my face in the pillow, waiting for what has to come, for what I can’t prevent.”  (pg. 851)

Third Person:

“His head is spinning, overcome by the rhythms of that distant waltz, by the odor of damp, fragrant plants: He fall exhausted on the bed, touching his cheeks, his eyes, his nose, as if he were afraid that some invisible hand had ripped off the mask he’s been wearing for twenty-seven years, the cardboard features that hid his true face, his real appearance, the appearance he once had but then forgot. He bury his face in the pillow, trying to keep the wind of the past from tearing away his own features, because he doesn’t want to lose them. He lie there with his face in the pillow, waiting for what has to come, for what he can’t prevent.” (pg. 851)

This passage was interesting because it was very descriptive and vivid. By using the second person point of view, it made me as a reader feel like I was directly involved in the story. It was more difficult for me to translate this passage into the third person point of view because just by switching the words “you” and “your” with “he” and “his”, it changed the entire structure of the sentence.

-Muneeb Khan

Below are some of your more salient comments. Please think about these carefully, as you will also see similar themes in previous works we’ve read. They will also be of use on the final exam!

 Themes that seem to connect all three works to Endgame:

Emptiness and a sense of purposelessness; “darkness” that cannot be obliterated by the “light”; life as struggle and pain; an individual being “crushed” by the world around; the idea of existence being incomprehensible, and therefore meaningless; life being full of “random objects and garbage” and therefore any meaning we may give life is at best horrifying (and ultimately Nihilistic); the use of dark color and dim lighting as a metaphor for the purposelessness of our existence; the individual (Clove and the Swan) as ultimately helpless, and a “victim” of life; Tara makes a very good observation about “The Chestnut Tree” and its connection to Endgame:

“We were a heap of existences, uncomfortable, embarrassed at ourselves, we hadn’t the

slightest reason to be there. none of us, each one confused, vaguely alarmed, felt

superfluous in relation to the others,” as Roquentin is describing human existence as

something that does not have an influence on anything, and in essence doesn’t exist at

all.

Other comments that bring these three works together: the idea of life as suffering; the idea that the only thing we can do about our pain and suffering is take a “pain killer,” a metaphor for simply being able to mask the pain, temporarily, but not being able to actually cure our pain; the idea of the individual’s isolation from all others; Keauna makes the comment (from “The Chestnut Tree”) that existence must be embraced, and I wonder if there is a glimmer of hope for all of these characters (and us!) in this idea? Jamie also points out that in both the poem and Endgame there is the opportunity for beauty and hope, even if the characters don’t take this opportunity; Jorge G. seems to point to the other side of this issue when he says that “Life can be magnificent on the surface but with no real identity or purpose”; the idea that although we can act, our actions are essentially meaningless; the idea of being “stuck” in our existence; the idea of hopelessness; the idea that existence is only that, we exist, end of sentence (or end of game?)