Discussion Questions for Iliad 10/1

Some things to think about in preparation for Wednesday’s class:

  • Why do you think Patroclus volunteers to go fight in Achilles’s place?
  • In several places, Patroclus is addressed directly, in the 2nd person, by the speaker of the epic (XVI.615; XVI.721; XVI.826). Why does Homer do this and what effect does this have on the narrative?
  • Compare Achilles’s reaction to the death of Patroclus to Gilgamesh’s reaction to the death of Enkidu. In addition to the emotional content of their responses, what specific acts or rituals does each perform and what are their meanings in the face of death?
  • What is the meaning of the tableaux rendered by Hephaestus on the shield of Achilles? How are the scenes related to each other? To the rest of the narrative?

The Fight Between the Two Men, Set Up by Gods

The battle was fought between the two, Achilles and Hector, but it involved multiple interpositions by Gods and Goddesses. Moreover, there would have no such battle without their intervention. There were many steps before the battle starts. First, through the messenger, Iris – Goddess of the rainbow -, Hera told Achilles to save the body of Patroclus. That motivated him to go to war. Second, Achilles’ mother, Thetis, and Hephaestus – God of lame – prepared armor and weapons for Achilles. The fine equipments would become necessary in the battle.

After Achilles arrived at the gates of Troy, Hector escaped from him with knowing he was unable to defeat the overwhelming Achilles. They were running around the city for three times during his escape. Apollo was helping  Hector to escape that long. Therefore, Zeus stopped them by placing on them agonizing deaths to make Hector “face his fate.” Furthermore, Athena used a trick and persuaded Hector to start a fight with Achilles by disguising as his favorite brother, Deiphobus. The fight of the two men finally started at this point. In other words, the fight between Achilles and Hector would have not even occurred without these complex interventions by the multiple Gods and Goddesses. That makes me question the meaning of “fate.”

The Armor of Achilles

Death of Patroclus: his own fate or gods plan?

While Achilles is out of the war due to discord with Agamenon, Trojans take advantage of it so make it a chance to win the battle. Patroclus, dearest friend of Achilles, could go back to his home but chooses to get killed in a battle. Achilles’ grief and anger at Hector and Troy envelopes the sky and land. He finally returns to the war; finally it gets Trojans to refuge to behind the wall. As well as, the greatest warrior of Troy, Hector, gets killed by Achilles, and Greek seizes the chance to victory.

In Illiad, gods intervene in human’s dispute frequently, and that brings advantages to each side as which they are on. Situations are sometimes favorable for Greek or Trojans depending on their interventions. Death of Patroclus changes aspect of the war to be favorable for Greek, and I assume his death could be result of intention of gods standing on Greek side.

Hector Bids Farewell

Hector; The eldest son of the Trojan King Priam and his queen Hecuba.  The Husband of Andromache and the chief warrior of the Trojan Army.  An ideal warrior and the mainstay of Troy.  Indeed Homer Places Hector as a peace-loving, thoughtful as well as bold, a good son,Husband and father, and without darker motives.  Hector a witness to the things of the  world, a hero ready to die for the precious imperfections of ordinary life. “And she came closer and stood beside him weeping and said to him, taking his hand in hers, “My dearest, this reckless courage of yours will destroy you.  Have pity now on your little boy and on me, your unfortunate wife, who before long your widow.”

hector n his wife

Achilles: Defender of moral order or Sulky McSulkerton?

Achilles, while grumpy and argumentative, seems to be a man ahead of his time. He portrays a strong sense of social order as his though process transcends the common heroic code. As admirable as these qualities may be, the question remains of whether they served him well in the long-run.

His desire for social order is apparent in the beginning when he takes it upon himself to discover the reasons behind the plague and disorder in the Achaian camp. Disregarding protocol, he calls an assembly and discovers that Agamemnon is responsible for the havoc. Achilles confronts his leader and, in his naggy style, finally convinces him to return the woman he had stole to her father, the priest. When Agamemnon decided to take Achilles’ woman as compensation, Achilles throws a justice hissy fit and withdraws from battle completely. Further on in the story, when he is begged to return and his spoils to be returned to him many times over, Achilles is unable to see past his self-pity to come to the aid of his comrades. He compares his predicament to that of Menelaos and Helen.

While I understand that Achilles’ decisions and offense are both spurred on for his desire for justice, his inability to see past his righteousness and pride (so far) have led to greater problems than solutions. The question is: “Is it more important to follow your loyalties and sacrifice moral justice, or is the bigger picture more important than your reputation and the lives of your comrade?”

Friend or Foe

 

From fighting together to fighting each other, here lies a story of two Greek heroes Agamemnon and Achilles. Agamemnon, warlord of the Achaean army, sacked a city of Trojan allied with his partner in crime Achilles. Thus, capturing maidens Chryseis and Briseis. Chryses, father of Chryseis, prays to Apollo(god of  priest) to get back her daughter from Agamemnon. This creates an argument from our two heroes that were once friends.

The epic opens up as “Rage”, showing emotions of Achilles anger eating his soul away. Agamemnon selfishness and power creates him to take away Achilles prize possession Briseis. Achilles has a point here stating in this passage “ I don’t have any quarrel with the trojans….. unhonoring myself and piling up a fortune for you” (lines162-181, pg234). Achilles emphasizes on “my” showing his dirty work doesn’t grant him a reward as big as Agamemnon and now he wants to take Achilles prize away. It’s like a drama featuring two guys from high school fighting over a girl.

Although the morality is focused on rage, it concerns with the actions of the gods. The two gods Apollo and Athena enforced the argument to be much bigger. Apollo started the argument creating the raid to take back Chryseis. Athena prevents Achilles from using his sword and insult Agamemnon instead verbally. The conflict between Achilles and Agamemnon highlights the aspects of life, morality and the vital importance of honor.

Mans first disobedience

From Adam and Eves first disobedient act, in the garden, raise many answers in the Judaism, Bible, and the Quran. All of them come to the conclusion of because of Satan’s jealousy of mankind, Adam and eve are rejected from the paradise. God typically responds to human behavior with retributive justice, meaning that people get what they deserve. God punishes the evil and blesses the righteous. As an illustration in the Noah and the Flood: “And the Lord saw that the evil of the human creature was great on the earth…………..And the Lord said ” I will wipe out the human race I created from the face of the earth……….I regret that I have made them”. “(page 163).

The disobedience of Adam and Eve make us raise some questions such as: Why God didn’t prevent the disobedience from happening because He is the one that know Everything? and also Did God know by creating Adam and Eve the disobedience will occur? All of that reflect the suffering of mankind on earth. As a result, at the beginning of genesis we have doubles and opposites. God created the world by dividing it into a system of doubles: Sun and the Moon, Light (daytime) and Dark (nighttime), the Land and the  Sea, and Male and Female. When Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit, and when Cain kills his brother Abel, good and evil enter the world. From that point on, the world is set with two basic opposing forces which are: the good and the bad, the lesser the greater. From my point of view, Base on these facts we can notice that God want us mankind to remember him .

 

 

 

Man’s first disobedience

During the creation, God noticed that everything he created every day was good then he noticed there was a need for something to populate his creation. This led him to create a human being form the Earth soil and to sprout trees from the ground as a source of food. He also created the Tree of Knowledge which would give them knowledge if they were to eat it. God told Adam that he can eat any fruit except the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, or else he would be fated to die. God felt that Adam needed a companion and created Eve. Eventually, Eve fell into temptation and also convinced Adam to do the same, and they both fell into sin.

The consequences after man’s first disobedience are that Adam and Eve were kicked out of paradise. Adam had to toil the land to provide food, while Eve had to bear pain when bearing a child. This would also apply to future human beings where the man had to provide food, while all women would experience pain during childbirth. Another consequence is Eve and future women, would be dominated my man. Their action of eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused consequences that would affect countless generations of human beings after them.

Duality of beginning and end, birth and death.

Mortality depicts a beginning and an ending. A journey in between, which often times entail a transformation or a change over the course of point A to point B. Those two points however were given a stage that a simple location in time would not suffice. A stage that puts into perspective the development of characters beyond just the physical. This perspective holds true in “The Epic of Gilgamesh”.

A river begins from the steps of heaven to the overwhelming denial of the sea. Rivers were often described in the face of death a journey where one would flow until no light can be seen. Another perspective of the rivers are shown in a ceaseless motion. As an individual the disturbance you could cause in the stream of life is but a simple pebble barely making a mark. Utanapishtim tries to convince Gilgamesh that even with immortality your life could still be dead without any appreciation of who you were or where you came from. Here laid a man of perfection, two third’s divine but yet mortal only to seek life, an endless second chance. Was the search for immortality for himself? Or Enkidu? If Gilgamesh consumed the immortality herb, would he truly obtain what he wished for?

Urshanabi - The guardian of the mysterious “stone things.” Urshanabi pilots a small ferryboat across the Waters of Death to the Far Away place where Utnapishtim lives. He loses this privilege when he accepts Gilgamesh as a passenger, so he returns with him to Uruk.
Line 290 – “No sooner had Gilgamesh heard this, He opened a shaft, flung away his tools. He tied heavy stones to his feet, They pulled him down into the watery depths. He took the plant though it pricked his hand. He cut the heavy stones from his feet, The sea cast him up on his home shore.”

The transformation of who you become when you lose a part of yourself in any shape or form is a journey where life begins even if death was not involved. The whole role of Enkidu was not to rival but fill and show Gilgamesh with emotions that he lacked prior to meeting Enkidu. The emotions Gilgamesh felt after the death of Enkidu were guilt, sympathy, love and fear. Which begged the question, would he have preferred to live the life before or after Enkidu’s death? If you could, would you turn off your humanity?

Discussion Questions for the Book of Genesis

Consider the following questions as you read from Genesis for Monday 9/15. Bloggers, feel free to use one of these questions as a prompt for your writing. Or choose a topic of your own to write about.

  • How does reading the Bible as literature differ from reading it as scripture?
  • How does the author characterize God? What is his relationship with creation, including his people?
  • What changes in the world after “man’s first disobedience”?
  • Compare and contrast the flood stories in Gilgamesh and Genesis. What do their differences say about their functions in the larger texts the are a part of?
  • Why does the Lord disregard Cain’s offering? What explanation does he offer to Cain?
  • Is there pathos in the story of Abraham and Isaac? If so, where does it come from? How is the reader supposed to feel about God’s testing of Abraham?